Communicating in a time of chaos, war and conflict with guest, author Doug Levy | Part 2 of 3 with The Communications Golden Hour® author

Author Doug Levy, of The Communications Golden Hour® Book, joins host Tim Conrad, APR, for the second of three episodes to discuss the roles of public information officers and crisis communications in emergencies and crises/issues.

Listen For:
01:05 - Communicating in the chaotic Trump style
10:40 - Media literacy
14:12 - Navigating global conflicts
19:45 - How values can be used to navigate division

Connect with Doug Levy
LinkedIn | Website | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter | Amazon - Buy Book

Connect with Tim Conrad
LinkedIn | Website | Facebook | Instagram 

Chapters

• 1:05 Communicating in the chaotic Trump style
• 10:40 Media literacy
• 14:12 Navigating global conflicts
• 19:45 How values can be used to navigate division

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:06
Unknown
On September 2nd, 2019, the United States Coast Guard was responding to a dive boat disaster near Santa Barbara, California. A few questions into the live interview with the Coast Guard commander. The anchor asked. So I just want to be clear. Those 34 are entirely unaccounted for still. And the commander responded, right now, yes, we are still actively searching and the Coast Guard has multiple assets on scene.

00:00:22:12 - 00:00:40:12
Unknown
It was very dark when the explosion happened, and we don't know if someone was able to get off board with a flotation device prior to us arriving on scene. The anchor asked another question before coming back. Did you use the word explosion? Was this an explosion? In that moment, the commander realized what they said and it was too late to pull the sentence back.

00:00:40:17 - 00:00:48:11
Unknown
Their heart sank. They realized they had just helped spread a rumor and then follow up, responding, I don't know. Further fed the rumors.

00:00:48:11 - 00:01:03:23
Unknown
This story is captured in the Mistakes and Misinformation chapter in the Communications Golden Hour book by Doug Levy. I'm your host, Tim Conrad. Welcome to the wildfires, floods and chaos Communications podcast with the second of three episodes with my guest author Doug Levy.

00:01:06:12 - 00:01:23:11
Tim Conrad
The US, has just shifted back to Trump, who communicates in a chaotic style which will certainly impact how messages are created and received. What are your thoughts on how this will impact communications, and do you have any tips on how organizations can be seen through that chaos?

00:01:23:11 - 00:01:58:11
Doug Levy
I think the most important thing is for communicators now more than ever before, to make sure that their communications strategy is directly tied to the organization's business purposes. If you use that as your North Star and stay true to it, you're more likely to be okay and your business plans, your corporate goals, your government agency targets whatever organization you're in.

00:01:58:13 - 00:02:31:12
Doug Levy
You know, everybody's got an operating plan for the next quarter, the next year, and so on. If everything you do is consistent with those purposes, that's going to be relatively safe as things change from Washington or elsewhere. If you refer back to that purpose before doing a quick reaction, you're more likely to be okay. And that's also how to get through, because one of the most important things is to maintain credibility.

00:02:31:14 - 00:03:24:11
Doug Levy
And organizations or individuals who change their views frequently without some logical reason for it are harder to believe. That doesn't mean you should never change your mind about something, but you have to be able to show why and how what you're doing makes sense in the context of what your reason for existence is. I mean, for example, if you're an organization that, promotes free speech and all of a sudden you decide that you are going to be okay with legislation to restrict free speech because of political pressure or something else, you're going to destroy your credibility individually and as an organization.

00:03:24:17 - 00:03:34:22
Doug Levy
So we have to make sure that we don't do knee jerk reactions. We've got to be strategic with our communications, whether it's on the fly or planned far ahead.

00:03:34:22 - 00:03:53:14
Tim Conrad
Yeah, yeah. And I, I think I'll add to that, that I don't think that you can you can, respond to chaos with more chaos. I don't think it's a successful strategy to think that that's going to work. So you have to find a way to step out of the chaos and, and and find a solution there.

00:03:53:15 - 00:04:28:00
Tim Conrad
Yeah. So this is a tense and an unpredictable time. Citizens have very low trust in their governments and their institutions. There's conflicts between countries which are increasing, and some governments are interfering directly in elections in democratic countries. To build fear and division. This is, it's just like it's a stomach churning, toxic stew right now. And, what do we need to consider as we navigate our own crisis and how these external factors can impact how our audiences will receive and respond?

00:04:28:02 - 00:05:06:02
Doug Levy
This is a very challenging one. And I have had the benefit of talking to quite a few people who have been, for example, campaigning in areas where there are large numbers of Arab Americans or people with relatives and other troubled places. The most important thing is to as much as possible, understand that there are people who are grappling with a situation and feelings and emotions that we probably can't fully understand.

00:05:06:02 - 00:05:44:09
Doug Levy
You know, the enormity of what is happening in certain places, whether we agree with one side or the other, is less important than acknowledging those emotions and those feelings. I think one of the reasons we saw such loud and large protests in 2020, after the murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, was that there are there were many communities and many leaders at the time who were dismissing the claims that there was police brutality against unarmed African-American people.

00:05:44:11 - 00:06:29:14
Doug Levy
You don't have to agree with whether there are inappropriate examples of brutality against black men to be empathetic with the people who believe that. And that's something that's a great point. For some reason, I think there's some executive training along the way that that that tries to take that empathy out. And that's a huge mistake. When I was doing some work, as a community member with the New York City Police Department, the then chief of the department was doing really elaborate surveys to understand people's attitudes and a lot of other things.

00:06:29:14 - 00:06:56:22
Doug Levy
I mean, it was it was part of the crime fighting, effort. One of the things that came out from those surveys was that within certain places and certain demographic groups, no matter how good the police actually were or how low the crime was, the people did not trust the police. And I remember the chief telling the officers, I know you're doing good work every day.

00:06:57:00 - 00:07:22:23
Doug Levy
I know that you go out and you know, are taking care of the community. However, you need to understand that not everybody in the community sees that or believes that. So you can't just presume they all think you're heroes, even though I think you are understanding that that lack of trust is step one to building that trust back up.

00:07:22:23 - 00:07:42:09
Tim Conrad
Yeah, absolutely. And so globally, and especially in the United States, we're in the midst of large societal shifts, which are likely to become even more massive in the coming years. What should we know as we head into this period, which is loaded with conflicts, wealth, wealth disparity, culture battles and so much more?

00:07:42:10 - 00:08:13:22
Doug Levy
That's a loaded question. There's so many, so many layers to it. I think for communicators, what is really important to understand is the seismic shift in the media. We've talked for years about how the advent of social media has completely changed the roles of newspapers and the evening news. We're in a new iteration of the information age, and this year I saw some data.

00:08:14:00 - 00:08:51:22
Doug Levy
I saw some data earlier today that, quite frankly, surprised me that the, the median age of viewers of the major US news channels on cable TV is really old 60s and 70s. I did not realize that myself. Younger people are not watching the news. It doesn't mean they're not getting the news, but they're not watching, the programs that we thought were the way to get information out to people.

00:08:52:02 - 00:09:19:15
Doug Levy
And unfortunately, the way people are getting their information is through their social media feeds, which by definition, are tuned to give people things that are inflammatory and shocking and probably not real. So as communicators, we've got to figure out how to break through that. We've got to be more creative. We've got to be smarter. We've got to be better at listening.

00:09:22:01 - 00:09:42:01
Unknown
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00:09:42:06 - 00:10:03:16
Unknown
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00:10:03:21 - 00:10:25:23
Unknown
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00:10:26:02 - 00:10:37:07
Unknown
You name it, we've kind of done it. Learn more about us at Butterfly Effect Communications, AKA where you can join our newsletter list now. Fly back to the wildfires, floods and Chaos Communications podcast.

00:10:41:02 - 00:11:11:18
Tim Conrad
and it's interesting that people have you know, I this just my observation they've left traditional media to go over to social because they found it very, very inflammatory and very, you know, they're, they're, they're building up and trying to create, I guess, their own form of chaos on television and, and wherever else they're broadcasting and putting news out, and they've shifted over to social media, which is actually they think is an improvement.

00:11:11:18 - 00:11:35:05
Tim Conrad
But it's actually, you know, you're just getting smaller bits of more chaos. And it's it's super fascinating. And that's something I found last year when I looked back on things that we experience during the wildfires. That's, that's that was our experience that we had. It was like, wow, they they don't like this chaos, but this chaos over here is worse, way crazier.

00:11:35:07 - 00:11:52:16
Tim Conrad
And they're going to that they're leaning into that, which is really quite interesting. But it came in in different both a different format but a different length of format as well. So but it is it's very much shifting. And I want to add another piece too. I have two older teenager teenagers in my house and I honestly don't know why.

00:11:52:16 - 00:12:12:13
Tim Conrad
Even though I watch the news all the time that they have ever sat and watched the broadcast from beginning to end. That's unusual to me because I can remember doing that many times as a kid. Because that's what you did at 6 p.m.. The news was on you watch. That's that's all you could watch. So it's it's definitely shifted, because we have devices in our pockets that can distract us in many ways.

00:12:12:13 - 00:12:55:13
Doug Levy
So it's also, unfortunately, at least in the US, it's a function of news literacy or the absence of news literacy. When I was in high school, we had to pass a class on government in English class. We had to read the newspaper sometimes and write essays based on things happening in the news. I don't know if those classes are still taught, but I know that some substantial portion of the American population is functionally unable to distinguish between the New York Times and some random blogger who may be making stuff up.

00:12:55:15 - 00:13:21:04
Doug Levy
We've even had members of Congress take stories from the parody site The Onion thinking they were real, and it would be funny if it wasn't true. Unless we fix that, we're going to be in deep trouble. Actually, yeah, we are in deep trouble because that has become such a problem. Facts. Yeah, absolutely not an exaggeration to say facts literally don't matter anymore.

00:13:21:08 - 00:13:35:14
Tim Conrad
No, they don't know. It's, very true. I've, Yeah. My, recent experiences show me that the the facts will be used as, as as a weapon. As much as they will be is as as a something. That's good.

00:13:36:09 - 00:13:58:11
Unknown
When I started this podcast, this is one part which surprised me an audience from so many cities, towns and villages all around this beautiful marble we call home. Hello to our listeners in Honduras and to listeners in these communities. Grenoble, France. Farmington, Pennsylvania. Revelstoke, British Columbia, just down the highway. Barnet, England. And Bangkok, Thailand. Thank you for listening to our podcast.

00:13:58:11 - 00:14:14:10
Unknown
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00:14:14:10 - 00:14:21:21
Tim Conrad
there's really Palestine war, created further division, protests and attacks around the world.

00:14:21:23 - 00:14:43:12
Tim Conrad
We are starting to see similar battles forming around the wider conflict in the Middle East. The Russia, Ukraine war and conflicts on other continents. What advice would you give to those communicating in organizations which may experience, these conflicts coming to their communities or organizations, which is happening quite a bit these days.

00:14:43:14 - 00:15:15:16
Doug Levy
We certainly saw across college campuses, a lot of, different approaches. And sadly, quite a few examples where at least from afar, it looked as if the responses were not consistent with the organization's values. And I keep coming back to that values and purpose thing, because that really is important. You know, if you have a mission statement that just, you know, collects dust on the wall of every lobby, that's not going to help you.

00:15:15:18 - 00:15:46:00
Doug Levy
But if you have a very clear mission statement that is integrated into the way you do business, no matter what kind of organization you are, you're more likely to make good decisions. And if you're an organization that advocates for free speech, well, you need to be advocating for free speech regardless of what the free speech may be. Now, with that said, it's also appropriate to have some restrictions on workplace activity.

00:15:46:02 - 00:16:24:20
Doug Levy
Maybe, for example, you know, if you're, if you're a law enforcement agency, you probably can't tell your employees that they can't carry a flag supporting a particular cause when they're off duty and away from work. But if they have a very partizan flag or attached to their vehicle that is parked at the police station, that's a problem because somebody's coming to the station to do business, may feel as if that's a message of hostility towards them.

00:16:24:22 - 00:16:58:04
Doug Levy
So you're not infringing on the person's free speech. You're actually promoting free speech by making sure that your space is neutral. And that's very important. I had to work with some of my clients recently on, how to navigate, you know, potential partizanship and discord and discussion at the workplace leading up to the US election. One of the things that that the organization put together was a very good set of messages that said, you know, as an organization, we wholeheartedly support civic engagement.

00:16:58:04 - 00:17:25:23
Doug Levy
It's our duty, it's our responsibility, it's our opportunity. We know that we are all capable of having kind, open discussions with each other. However, please keep those discussions outside of the workplace because you don't know who else is around. And it it it's just not consistent with the work that we do. We encourage you to do it. But there's a time and a place.

00:17:26:00 - 00:17:57:11
Doug Levy
And that kind of instruction is helpful with regard to the specifics of of Gaza and Ukraine. We've seen many organizations do fundraising and that's tricky because, I mean, I think the reality is there was less debate over Ukraine. I mean, everybody that I know and every organization that I saw was horrified at what happened. So there was a lot of fundraising in support of people from Ukraine, with Israel and Gaza.

00:17:57:11 - 00:18:49:00
Doug Levy
It's unfortunately way more complicated and horribly tragic on so many levels. Understanding that it's not a clear one side right, one side wrong situation, it's much riskier to take a side. So generally, if you are going to do anything, you should do something that is balanced. So if you're going to give people information on how to support refugees from Gaza, you might want to come up with ways to support people in other places that can help or work with a relief organization that is neutral and works across borders, like the World Central Kitchen.

00:18:49:01 - 00:19:02:02
Doug Levy
People want to do something when something bad is happening elsewhere. And the extent to the extent that you can help channel that energy in a product of way, you might even bring people together, which is kind of a cool thing.

00:19:03:08 - 00:19:16:01
Unknown
Dee dee dee. He did it.

00:19:16:03 - 00:19:47:03
Unknown
He d d d d d d d d d d de de de de de de de de de de de de. Any day.

00:19:48:02 - 00:20:01:07
Tim Conrad
We know much of the population wants to know what organizations think of these conflicts as a way to demonstrate leadership, for those organizations. So what do organizations who have this expectation say when there is such division?

00:20:01:08 - 00:20:30:17
Doug Levy
One of the things that is really important is a recognition that it may appear that everybody agrees with one side, or that one side is morally or ethically right, and the other side is wrong. I don't know very many. I don't I'm not sure I know any situations that are truly light and dark that way. As a result.

00:20:30:19 - 00:21:24:23
Doug Levy
I think it's really important that we modify the way we think about conflicts and recognize that as an organization, our values may align with a certain position. However, we need to in most situations, make sure that we keep room for other points of view. I think when we saw the protests across many of the university campuses, one of the problems was that there was deep concern for the people who were killed on October 7th and the reaction when we, the Israeli army, attacked Gaza and killed many people there was not the same.

00:21:25:02 - 00:22:16:05
Doug Levy
There's obviously a lot to the differences in the actions. However, a death is a death. Grieving. When people die is appropriate. It is a human reaction. Even if you are only, you know, even if you are steadfast on one side or the other, acknowledging grief across the board is very important. For example, when I've written messages for organizations in situations like we're always very careful to acknowledge the emotions, the feelings, the suffering everywhere and help our audiences understand what we are doing about it.

00:22:16:05 - 00:22:50:11
Doug Levy
If there is something that we as an organization can or should do or if it's really beyond our scope, direct people where they can turn to get emotional support if they need it to give to charity or participate in activities in support of one side or the other, or optimally, organizations that are neutral and serving across borders.

00:22:50:13 - 00:23:28:13
Doug Levy
That's always helpful. Unless you're an arm of one of the participants in the conflict overseas, I've been such as a representative of one of the governments having some degree of neutrality, or at least empathy towards both sides is critically important. And again, going back to the universities there's nothing wrong. I mean I think it was a natural reaction to be horrified by what happened on October 7th, although many of us were equally horrified or more by what happened next.

00:23:28:14 - 00:24:06:00
Doug Levy
And you can't say all anti-Semitism is wrong. While allowing people to be campaigning against all Arabs, especially if you're an academic institution, because neither is technically correct. Campaigning against the slaughter of innocent people in Israel by Hamas is not the same as campaigning against all Arab Americans or any Arab Americans. Arab-Americans are not Hamas. The Israeli government is not American Jews.

00:24:06:02 - 00:24:06:19
Tim Conrad
Yeah.

00:24:06:21 - 00:24:34:12
Doug Levy
And of course, what makes things really complicated is that not not every American Jew support the Israeli government. Many of us have very strong feelings otherwise. But but making space for the multiple sides is an art that leaders must do. I mean, the definition of a leader is to help people be more than just what's in front of them.

00:24:34:14 - 00:24:35:07
Doug Levy
Yeah.

00:24:35:09 - 00:25:02:00
Tim Conrad
Yeah. Isn't that the truth? And and we're, you know, the we're upon Remembrance Day here in Canada and, and, you know, it does take me back to, you know, the stories of the war, both wars. I was fortunate enough that that that, and I know you are the that we were alive to hear first hand stories from World War one and World War Two.

00:25:02:00 - 00:25:33:03
Tim Conrad
Veterans and and I was always, surprised by the humanity that would sometimes appear in the middle of war amongst soldiers, soldiers who would, you know, celebrate holidays together, and go to help one another to collect their dead and injured. We've lost some of that humanity over these last, you know, 8000 years. And I do hope we'll see some of that come back.

00:25:33:03 - 00:25:44:01
Tim Conrad
So I like the ear approaches, you know, we can be empathetic towards the loss of life and then focus on that and not see, a good starting point.

00:25:44:03 - 00:26:09:14
Doug Levy
And honestly, that's an important starting point for communication in any bad situation. How many times have we seen a police chief stand up and talk about the bad guys? You know, we shot the bad guy or whatever? Well, it doesn't matter what the person did. That was somebody's son, somebody's father, somebody's brother, somebody's friend. This is it's not something to celebrate.

00:26:09:14 - 00:26:18:03
Doug Levy
And there's nothing wrong with expressing sympathy to the people who have lost a loved one. Yeah. No matter what the circumstances are.

00:26:18:05 - 00:26:42:15
Tim Conrad
Yeah. That's right. I've. Yeah. I mean, we certainly seen that, here in North America. It's a challenge that police are seeing when they're responding to some calls and, and they're dealing with a mental health crisis for someone. And then that person ends up dead at their hands. And I, I think if I could send a little message out to the police out there, it's like, I don't feel like there's enough empathy coming in those moments.

00:26:42:17 - 00:27:05:12
Tim Conrad
For that situation towards the people that have lost their lives and the families and friends of those people that, that were, you know, the victim in this situation. They're also, part of, you know, potentially causing a crime. Yes. Maybe, but it's, I think we can certainly give more empathy, and there's nothing wrong with that.

00:27:06:00 - 00:27:28:08
Unknown
Thank you for listening and taking the time to learn from our guests. Join us for one more episode with Doug Levy. Do you have suggestions for guests or topic? Or maybe some thoughts on one of our episodes? You can write to us at Communications podcast.com where you can also leave a review. Thanks to Ed McDonagh for a five star review on season two, episode 11, Crisis Communications Management with Shauna Bruce.

00:27:28:09 - 00:27:49:00
Unknown
Now I don't want to be alone. We need more than one review. That's all we've got. Ed, you were the first. Let's get some more. Get that trend going. Wherever you listen, whether it's Spotify, iTunes or Amazon Music. Please subscribe and share with a colleague or friends, such as someone in health communications. Remember, we also have a newsletter that will give you more information and we put up transcripts, links and information from our guests on our website.

00:27:49:03 - 00:28:09:20
Unknown
Visit communications podcast.com. If you like this episode, check out season one episode seven Connecting in the chaos with guest host Jans and me as the guest. Thank you for joining the wildfires, Floods and Chaos Communications Podcast, a production of Butterfly Effect Communications. We are masters of doom and gloom. Communications bringing calm to chaos. Goodbye. Hear me later.