Is it trash or truth? Information and the California wildfires | With Ventura County Battalion Chief Pete Jensen and host Tim Conrad

Conspiracy, AI-created imagery, misinformation and false information now dominate disasters, overpowering truthful and honest information. It is mainstream on social media, podcasts and traditional media, and often repeated by broadcasters, hosts and celebrities. 

Pete Jensen is on the front lines of the southern California wildfires, where, in the past, he has served in many roles, including public information officer. Much of what he shares applies no matter where you are. What we know about wildfires, how they move and how we fight them is international.  

Listen For:
01:29 - Status of the Southern California Wildfires, Water Supply, Staffing and Equipment
33:42 - Forest Management, Resources, and Managing Wildfires
1:11:58 - Finale - Three quick questions

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Chapters

• 1:29 Status of the Southern California Wildfires, Water Supply, Staffing and Equipment
• 33:42 Forest Management, Resources, and Managing Wildfires
• 1:11:58 Finale - Three quick questions

Transcript

00:00:17:16 - 00:00:39:08

As California experiences what is likely to be its most destructive wildfire season in history. There is an explosion of conspiracy theories, misinformation and false information matching the damage to the structures, lives, and communities. This is a very familiar pattern I've seen in disasters. Both those I've responded to and those I've watched on the screen like the rest of the world.

00:00:39:09 - 00:01:08:00

It is an issue I have seen developing since 2003. Conspiracy. I created imagery, misinformation and false information now dominate disasters, overpowering truthful and honest information. It is mainstream on social media, podcasts and traditional media, and often repeated by broadcasters, hosts and celebrities. Jensen is on the front lines of the Southern California wildfires, where in the past he has served in many roles, including public information officer.

00:01:08:02 - 00:01:27:14

Much of what he shares applies no matter where you are. What we know about wildfires, how they move and how we fight them. His international I'm your host, . Welcome to the third season of the wildfires, Floods and Chaos Communications podcast with Ventura County Battalion Chief Pete Jensen.

00:01:28:10 - 00:01:33:10

Pete, thanks for joining me. And tell me about the wildfire conditions today.

00:01:33:15 - 00:01:58:02

We are on a January 15th right now, so Wednesday. And, expecting a pretty rough day. I understand down there. Yes, we are where I live in our county is in red flag warning conditions where we have high winds, hurricane force predicted winds and very low humidities, dry fuel moisture. And so it's highly susceptible for fire growth in a rapid, rapid motion.

00:01:58:02 - 00:02:21:12

Pete Jensen

And we are also, in an area which is, the National Weather Service has created this year, kind of, I call it a red flag plus conditions. And that is where it's an extreme fire weather conditions for explosive and rapid fire growth, which is exactly what you saw a week or so ago with the Palisades fire and the eating fire.

00:02:21:14 - 00:02:49:06

Yeah, yeah. And it's, Yeah, obviously very, volatile conditions that, you've had. So I'm curious what the wildfire conditions have been in Southern California as you, as you entered January. So what was it like as you came through November and December? And what were you what's the buildup been like? Well, we are still in a drought, conditions limited to no rain throughout Southern California, which is, you know, every year we get the, you know, somebody will come out and say, oh, it's going to be the worst fire season ever.

00:02:49:08 - 00:03:15:09

Excuse me. And that's because it's either we have rain and that helps the the grasses grow and we get the light flashy fuels growing. And and then they dry out and they're receptive fuel bed for you know for fire growth. Then on the other hand we'll have no rain. We're in a drought. And all of both the grasses are dry, and not as much fresh grass growth.

00:03:15:11 - 00:03:36:05

But the, you know, two and three hour fuel or two and five hour fuel, ten hour fuels. I'm sorry. Their fuel moisture has dropped tremendously, but we do have that potential, you know, for large fire growth and in the heavier brush. So it it varies from year to year. This year just happens to be kind of a combination of both.

00:03:36:05 - 00:03:57:15

We really didn't have much rain last year. And we've or during the, you know, the fall months. And now we roll into all the way through winter and, and then our biggest threat to us at this time of year is the Santa Ana or East winds. Yeah. And then we've certainly through news reports and things that we're seeing on social media, seeing what those winds look like.

00:03:57:15 - 00:04:16:13

And I just wanted to add to like there's this drought problem and this, you know, situation with, with wildfire conditions is is not just a California problem. It's it's across North America and it's around the world. We're seeing extreme wildfire conditions present for several years here in Canada, almost every season. And Europe has had a dramatic increase in extreme wildfires.

00:04:16:13 - 00:04:37:21

Russia led the pack, with the growth in extreme wildfires 25 years ago. So this is this is an issue that has been developing over decades. And, you know, it's it's getting more challenging for fire firefighters. So and I just want to point out I've worked, several wildfires, that were extreme in nature and started with supporters like wildfire, which was profiled back in season two, episode 12.

00:04:37:21 - 00:04:57:05

If anybody wants to go back. And the interesting thing is with these fires is once they're seeded, which takes under an hour, it's very difficult to fight them. So, want to get into a bit of conversation with you around that and what that looks like. So so first off, let's start with the cause of fires. And there's lots of discussion right now around the causes of fires.

00:04:57:05 - 00:05:18:06

And many people simply believe that these are arson. They want to point the finger at arson. And some are. It's one cause among many possibilities. Obviously, that's a crime. And, you know, it's really important. I just want to make sure the audience understands that evidence is important. So, you know, any documentation of imagery or what's going on if you see that in place and happening at that time.

00:05:18:07 - 00:05:34:20

And that's one thing. But what so what are you seeing some of the causes down there for fires so far this season, including arson? Well, it's like you said, there's a multitude of different causes. And I'm not here to point fingers at any of them and any of them currently, because they are all continuing to be under investigation.

00:05:34:20 - 00:06:10:04

So there are no reportable causes as of such for the the major fires that are going on currently. Historically, there has been equipment malfunctions, typically with our electrician transmission systems and things like that, to which at least Southern California Edison has been very proactive with public safety shutdowns or brownouts, where they'll shut down a particular geographical area due to the wind, the strong winds and that type of thing to protect even if, if, if the lines do arc between themselves without any power, they can slap all they want.

00:06:10:05 - 00:06:32:03

They're not going to cause the arcing. And so they're working to try to prevent those types of fires. But it has been a very unfortunate situation historically with that type of starts. And those are you know, they tend to be out and, you know, off the beaten path out in the wilderness, some place where it takes time for us to get there.

00:06:32:05 - 00:06:56:18

And by the time we get there, it's it's well-established. And then and yes, there there are some arsons where, you know, the, the strategic placement of a device, you know, and initiating fire. You have vehicle fires alongside the roads that will initiate a brush fire. And same thing with structure fires. You know, there's structure fire in and around the urban interface.

00:06:56:20 - 00:07:17:08

And you start to get Ember cast out of the, or direct flame connection, or impingement from the fire to the brush and it takes off from there. So that's, that's kind of what the current trend for starts are. Yeah. Yeah. And I up here in Canada, I mean, about half of our fires are, are started by humans.

00:07:17:08 - 00:07:39:12

Whether the causes accidental and whether it's a piece of equipment or things like cigaret butts or debris or malfunctions from a motor vehicle or something like that. There's also fireworks and campfires is that people are careless with. And of course, as you mentioned, electrical equipment. I'm curious if you've had, we've had a significant increase in lightning events, in particular lightning events, that are called dry lightning.

00:07:39:12 - 00:08:03:02

So they come with no rain with that storm. Are you seeing increases in lightning events down there as well? This time of year, we do occasionally back in the national forests. And in that, you know, the more the backcountry areas, we will get some of that during the like you said, dry lightning. So then you got to have the large build ups for thunderstorms to be there.

00:08:03:04 - 00:08:28:10

We don't get those quite as often as other areas of the state. The central and northern part of the state of California get a tremendous amount of lightning starts, and they do get those on the early part of the the summer spring. So it's kind of interesting. The northern part of California has their fire season in the summer, and we have ours in the fall and winter, but it really is a year round type situation.

00:08:28:10 - 00:08:45:23

It all depends on like we talked about earlier, fuel moisture for the receptive fuel beds and then you throw the weather in on top of that. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And that's the thing for you folks down there. I mean we're into winter up here. So we do have some snow cover, at least in some parts of Canada at this point.

00:08:45:23 - 00:09:02:14

So our risk of wildfire during the winter is pretty low. But funny enough, our some of our fires do burn all all winter long. And then they come alive in the summertime. They burn underground. And we've had that issue in recent years. So, so now we're going to talk a little bit about, the fighting of the fires and, and what goes into that.

00:09:02:16 - 00:09:18:06

The one of the first big things that came out of this particular event was, that hydrants were running out of water and that got lots of attention. And, and, as a, as a former firefighter, I have views on that and why that happens and, and what can go on there. And so tell me a bit about why hydrants run out of water.

00:09:18:07 - 00:09:43:17

Well, it's it's interesting. You know that's obviously that's a touchy subject. And you don't want to get into internal politics or things like that. But the facts are, is that there is when a water system, especially in some of these rural areas, they're based on tanks, tank water and having enough water in the tank, and then the system of pumps to pump the water to refill the tank and so on and so forth.

00:09:43:19 - 00:10:23:12

And with the public safety, it brownouts, there is that potential that there are certain sections that may be shut down or reduced power to be able to run those pumps to refill things. There's that. There's also, areas some of these water systems go back to the early nights, and they are not built to the capacity, you know, to be able to supply the water demand that a large wildfire with multiple starts going and you're pulling off the same grid at the same time, the system just can't can't hold that.

00:10:23:12 - 00:10:45:19

And then you add in, you know, people using their own water systems in their houses, turn sprinklers on, you know, whatever it is. And you have this continuous drawdown on the supply. And and that's difficult. You know, everybody's trying to do the right thing, but it does have an effect. And we do have that reduction in water supply.

00:10:45:20 - 00:11:13:11

You could even have a broken line, broken water main and that kills that whole section. And so it's it's time, it's age. And then it's how the system is built. You know, if it's built with, with a lateral system, with pumps pulling from reservoirs and that type of thing, or is it pulling from aboveground tanks? Well, water, it all depends on where all that stuff, where your water source is and then how you're drawing that.

00:11:13:11 - 00:11:39:20

So that's where some of the problems come from. And it's, you know, as you know, being a firefighter, you try to take more than, you know, 3 or 4 hydrants on a street. You're not going to get the same amount of head pressure that you've had at the beginning. So, yeah, it's it's just unfortunate. And that's something that I think it's important that the public understand that, you know, we in the fire service understand capacities and pump pressures and GPM flows.

00:11:39:22 - 00:12:08:05

The general public doesn't understand that. And when they see a firefighter frustrated because he's not getting water out of a fire hydrant, there's reasons that are outside of their control. And it's not a malicious thing, you know, it's it's the system, you know? Yeah. And sometimes the systems are just not made for that level of capacity. Yeah. And without getting too political, I mean, one of the challenges is that in order to upgrade systems, taxes need to go up to support that.

00:12:08:05 - 00:12:27:20

And that's where the money comes from. And and so if people don't support those things happening, which, you know, building a reservoir is big money, and building these water systems underground, big money again. And all these pumps, I work for a water utility, so I know what it costs. It's it's in the millions of dollars to do almost anything in that line of business.

00:12:28:01 - 00:12:44:06

If you're if you're not willing to support that at the time, then unfortunately, when it comes down to fire, you do have limits on what is available to you. So, I was curious, before we jump into reservoirs and talk a little bit about those, a bit more so that people understand the system of reservoirs in California.

00:12:44:06 - 00:13:01:13

Does this do you use other sources of water as well down there? We do a lot of drafting in Canada of brook streams, lakes, wherever we can find water, even the ocean. What do you do? That kind of, movement of water as well? Absolutely. Yeah. And you probably saw, you know, portable pumps and pools or, you know, that type of thing.

00:13:01:13 - 00:13:30:05

We've got, you know, helicopters, you know, drawing water using Bambi buckets or siphons right out of pools and reservoirs, any standing water that we can find, ponds on golf courses, things like that. But there's also not every source of water that you might see is adequate or the right thing for us to be using. It may not be deep enough, and then you end up sucking mud up into the thing so you can't draw water from that.

00:13:30:07 - 00:13:54:03

It may be contaminated water due to of runoff from fields or whatever it may be, and that may not be, and there may not be an approval. You know, we don't have carte blanche to be able to draw water from just any place. And most people are generous enough just, hey, if it's protecting their particular house, take as much water out of my pool as you can, I don't care, take it.

00:13:54:03 - 00:14:16:05

But there is. You know, those agreements sometimes get in the way. You know, if somebody says no, you're not taking water from here for that purpose. Another one is drinking water reservoirs, drinking water out of reservoirs. They get really nervous about, you know, bringing in mussels and things that are not indigenous to that particular lake, you know, or whatever.

00:14:16:05 - 00:14:39:09

And if you just drew water from someplace else and now you're going to dip water from their water supply, you know, they say, no, go for that. And you're like, well, wait a minute, you have all that water, why can't you use it? There's there's there's other reasons, contractual reasons that we may or may not be able to use those water sources.

00:14:39:11 - 00:14:59:06

Yeah. And it is I know, I understand like people will say, oh, red tape and bureaucracy and so on. But these are to protect long term things and to ensure that that that water sources are protected over a long term. I was on the fire. I was just as you were saying, that I was remembering on the fire one time that we pulled out of a what's called a slew up here, but it's a just a pond on a farm.

00:14:59:06 - 00:15:16:23

And the smell that was coming out of our hoses was just awful, because it had been contaminated with animals that were defecating nearby. Right. So it was just it was terrible, the smell of that. And, you know, obviously you don't want to have that kind of the stench, or what may come with it. And there could be potential disease in there.

00:15:16:23 - 00:15:35:03

So, so when you just tell us a little bit about the reservoir system in California, because it's quite a, I understand, quite a complex system. You have drinking water reservoirs, you have, sure, stormwater reservoirs, and you have the water for firefighting. So give us a breakdown of what those are and, and kind of how those are filled up and, and sustain you.

00:15:35:05 - 00:15:52:19

Well, you know, as you may know, you know, Southern California is a partially a desert, you know, so there's really not a lot of water above ground water supply. You know, we don't get the rain to refill the reservoirs and that type of thing. And years ago, I forget the exact dates, but I believe it started in the 50s.

00:15:52:19 - 00:16:27:02

There was the Mulholland project that started bringing water from Northern California, even up to, Lake Shasta and through the Sacramento Delta and diverting that water down a series of aqueducts and piping down to Southern California. And then they're kept in storage lakes. There's also a series of lakes all the way through, that, Edison and other water electricity purveyors created manmade lakes to store the water.

00:16:27:02 - 00:16:54:07

And then allow it as it goes out to be water generation for electricity. So this whole system is is integrated in. And then you've got the, you know, like I said, lakes along the way that are built. And then they drain into another lake. And it just kind of travels all down. So there's large amounts of storage of water throughout central California, down through into the Southern California for, for that purpose.

00:16:54:07 - 00:17:16:10

And that's where we draw our drinking water, not only drinking water, water, period. I mean, that's what we use to water our lawns to wash our cars the whole nine yards. So that's our water supplies. There's not especially the closer you get to the coast, there's not as many wells because of saltwater intrusion. So we're not able to draw that as well into that.

00:17:16:12 - 00:17:43:08

Some of that can be desalinated and used for drinking water. There are desalination plants that are built for that purpose throughout California, and different areas that have chose to, to build those systems. And then there are the natural rivers and creeks and stuff that do flow. But because we don't have heavy snowfall in the basin area, those rivers don't flow 90% of the time.

00:17:43:08 - 00:18:18:21

Plus they're not at a level to where we can draw from them. You know, we probably saw the Canadian Super Scoopers or bombers. They were actually drawing from the ocean, you know, or some other lakes that are big enough that they can get that one mile run to be able to draw water up into the aircraft. Yeah. We do set up relay stations where we'll set up large tanks and use water tenders to fill those tanks for the helicopters to come in and draw from and shorten the turnaround time between fill and drop, because that's what's key.

00:18:18:21 - 00:18:34:21

The the faster we can do the turnaround, the more water we can put on, the more. Yeah. And that's really interesting, as you say, that here in Canada, what we do. Because at least in the mountains, in the hills, they'll set up portable tanks up the hill and then the helicopter comes up and fills it up for them.

00:18:34:21 - 00:18:54:19

So it does the opposite. But I have heard of it going both ways. So, yeah, it's really interesting. And as you mentioned, there's there's, you know, the the lack of water in general has been an issue. We're just not seeing like, snowpack. We're not seeing that in Canada either. We had a very low snowpack last year in Canada in their Canadian Rockies.

00:18:54:19 - 00:19:10:18

And I live right next to a river. I look out my window right to my, to my right here that, looks over one of these mountain rivers. And it was shocking how low it was last season. At its at its highest point. It's. Yeah, we're starting to see some pretty impressive water issues starting to creep up.

00:19:10:20 - 00:19:28:21

On this note, I wanted to just sort of bring some and correct me if I'm wrong. See if see if my mouth is right here. Pete. So, typical hose fire will require 1500 gallons per minute of water sustained over two hours. So that's one hose that's on fire, 1400 gallons per minute, sustained over two hours. So that's what we look for from a hydrant.

00:19:28:21 - 00:19:45:12

If we were able to get hooked up, we want to be able to draw 500 gallons per minute off of that. That and we turn that into 1500 gallons per minute through some firefighter magic. And so that works out to a 180,000 gallons of water to put on one fully involved typical home, if that was running full time for two hours.

00:19:45:12 - 00:20:12:03

Right. So that's a significant amount of water. Now, just put it in perspective for those folks that are in California right now, say you have 10,000 homes that are on fire. That is 1.8 billion gallons of water that you're going to need to put out all of those homes. So you can quickly understand that there's no system in the world that is capable of that, unless you're pulling from the ocean and you have the best pumps available, all of them with you right there at that time.

00:20:12:03 - 00:20:46:18

And so it's it's a very challenging situation when you get into that once wildland fire gets into the urban environment and starts to it becomes an urban fire at that point and very different fuel loads, and the amount of water needed is significant. So any thoughts on that? Well, one thing that just jumps right out that I want to add to that is when you're thinking about T, you know, the way these fires are expanding, how they're growing and with the Ember cast and how the, the blowtorch of direct flame impingement across.

00:20:46:18 - 00:21:27:02

But just the ember cast in is far out. You know, up to miles ahead that chunks of flaming debris drops down into a receptive fuel bed and you're leapfrogging. You know, the fire is literally leapfrogging and then catching up to each other, and then it continues. So if you think about that, dropping into a neighborhood, a standard, you know, neighborhood that's got, you know, 15, 20 homes on a cul de sac and it's got every 500ft standard fire hydrant, and that fire hydrant can put out each one 1500 gallons, and you're trying to work 3 or 4 homes at the same time.

00:21:27:04 - 00:21:54:17

It's virtually and because this is so fast moving, it's unsafe for us to hook up to a hydrant. So we're just, you know, first and foremost, it's life safety. We're in there. And you start to see a house start to or around it start to get engaged in fire. The first priority is to make sure nobody's inside the house and try to protect that and get them out.

00:21:54:19 - 00:22:14:16

And then we'll try to do what we can. But we also can't be in the middle of that firestorm for our own safety. And where some of these homes with overgrown trees and, and vegetation and everything else, it's unsafe for us to be there too. So it's a rapid in and out, you know, it's life. Safety first. Yeah.

00:22:14:18 - 00:22:42:11

But another thing I wanted to point out when you're talking about the water supply, we also have to talk about the manpower to be able to do the job. Okay. And in average, you know, we were talking, the LA County Fire chief mentioned this just, day before yesterday during a news conference for them and for us, it's 3 to 4 fire engines and maybe a ladder truck or two to be able to put on a structure fire.

00:22:42:12 - 00:23:07:01

Single family dwelling, structure fire. Okay. It's. Well, that's three personnel per fire engine, plus the four on each of the ladder trucks. Okay. So what's the what's the math? Four times three is 12 around 2020, fire personnel, not counting command staff for just one house we just talked about gave an example of 20 on a cul de sac.

00:23:07:03 - 00:23:29:18

We can't fit that many fire engines on the street for one. Yeah, in that type of intense fire conditions. And if you multiply that out by, let's say you got what did they say they had ten. They lost over 1000. I forget how many homes we'll just use. The number of 1000. Yeah okay. So a thousand times you know the four.

00:23:29:18 - 00:23:59:12

That's 4000 fire engines that we need right now instantaneously. And no fire department has that kind of resources to be able to handle that. And it takes time. California has by far the best mutual aid system in the world for moving resources around. And we had pre-positioned resources. We just can't can't you can't support that type of a number of fire resources year round.

00:23:59:14 - 00:24:31:08

You know. That's right. It's you can't it's not cost effective for that. You know, it's these are extreme conditions and we do the best that we can during that period of times, you know, the water and the staffing to be able to put the water and, and do whatever we need to do. It's one thing if you can just work 1 or 2 houses at a time, but when it's blowing those embers and we call it fire front following, you know, we let it go, get past us, and then we come back in and we do what we can to put out what we can.

00:24:31:10 - 00:24:53:16

You know, as we as we move along, if we can even get back into there safely. Yeah. But it's. Yeah, yeah, it really is. If a fire hurricane or fire tornado that's going through and there's no humanly possible to be able to get in the way, that you have to remove the fuel. Yeah. Yeah. Which is again, not a task that can be done at that particular time.

00:24:53:16 - 00:25:14:22

It's it's we missed that opportunity at that point. So. Yeah, it's, it's a it's just such a, it's hard to describe to people. I've seen these very, very large fires, extremely large fires and how they move and how they shift and, and they have a mind of their own after once they get seated and get going, they will shift and go and they will jump over you.

00:25:15:00 - 00:25:27:22

You think that your, you know, this is where the fire is coming from, but it's actually over on the other side because it's fooled you. It's scary stuff when you're out there and it's. Yeah. So it's not as you know, not to discount what people are saying out there, but it is not as simple as the way you're thinking about it.

00:25:27:22 - 00:25:43:19

And we really do need to keep firefighter safety number one because we need them. We need them, those people to keep going and keep functioning. And, you know, that's a that's a big part of what is the thought process behind folks like you making those command decisions. And you want everybody to go home at the end of the day.

00:25:43:19 - 00:26:06:04

So another one that's come up, you mentioned the the super Scoopers, from Canada. So those are the CL for four fifteens, which is we are manufacture those in Canada. It's something that really come out of wartime and we've developed that to fit our needs over the years. And those are an amazing for anybody that's ever had an opportunity to watch those super scoopers work or the, the air tractors, which are a smaller plane.

00:26:06:04 - 00:26:21:01

They're a hell of a lot of fun to watch. And I know lots of people have been posting lots of different things, watching in amazement at these pilots and what they do. But all of the pilots, helicopters and larger planes and so on do amazing work along with the firefighters on the ground there, dumping some red stuff out of them.

00:26:21:01 - 00:26:54:17

It's fire retardant. And, I've seen out there that some people believe that the that makes the fires burn hotter and faster. So what do you say about that? Absolutely the opposite. The the it's fast. Check is the brand name that is used that gives it that the red is a dye that's added to it so that, the pilots and the spotter planes and everybody can see where it lands, because if you just drop water, you can't see the wetness from the sky, so you can't stitch a line together without seeing it.

00:26:54:17 - 00:27:21:15

So that's where the the redness comes from. It's it's there for visibility purposes and for tracking. It is a fertilizer, nontoxic fertilizer based fire retardant and especially when it's wet, reduces the fire being able to establish itself in that. So that's where that comes into play. It is a retardant. It's not a fireproof air. It's very sticky and it sticks to everything.

00:27:21:17 - 00:27:58:23

It's not fun to get hit with and it's a pain to wash off your vehicle from, from experience with that, you know, but it's, it's, it's a very useful tool. And you'll see, that's what's being loaded into your large tankers. The air tankers, some helicopters on their initial drops. They may have fast check already loaded, but for the most part, your rotary wing are using water and they're doing spot, you know, and supporting hand crews and dozer lines and things like that to support them and also hit hot spots, you know, or spot fires and that type of thing.

00:27:58:23 - 00:28:24:01

So those pilots directly know where they're hitting. They're they also drop from a much lower altitude where the tankers, the, the, I guess they call them water bombers or the also known as the super Scoopers. They're they drop from a little higher to a lot higher depending on the size of the aircraft. And, and they're just trying to stitch a line to, to protect.

00:28:24:05 - 00:28:51:05

And sometimes they do direct line right onto the fire to try to slow it down, you know, on the initial stages. So that's where they're with they're definitely used for. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And it's I just want to reiterate that if you've ever said that to a firefighter that, that that fire retardant, that red fire retardant makes fires burn hotter and faster, be prepared to be smacked stupid by that firefighter because it's just not the case.

00:28:51:05 - 00:29:07:20

And, you know, one of the cool things I've I've as I've worked a number of fires and I get up in the helicopter to do reconnaissance and see what's going on. Usually in the sort of, I would say after the initial attack has happened. And, it's really cool to see those lines, paint it and see the properties that have been protected from it.

00:29:07:21 - 00:29:24:23

And, and I always tell people that if they do stay behind and you see a plane coming down and dropping red stuff over you, it's time to leave. It is really time to leave at that point in time, because that means that the fire is heading in your direction and that's, you know, to slow it down and give you a give firefighters a chance, hopefully, of maybe pausing it and or stopping it.

00:29:24:23 - 00:29:48:03

So, and please be grateful that that happened and not be upset because your sidewalk is turned pink. You know, that's the least of your, you know, least of the worries. And yeah, it does take some effort to to clean it off. And, you know, it's it's not that we do it deliberately to make a mess. We're doing it to save life and property, you know?

00:29:48:03 - 00:30:13:03

So, we will do our best and try not to hit, you know, those types of things, but, you know, the overspray and the way the wind blows it, which I must, I should add, is under these extreme wind conditions that we're having where the aircraft can't fly, it either is physically unsafe for them to fly because of the wind conditions, or it's just in practical to fly.

00:30:13:03 - 00:30:37:03

Yeah, the aircraft could fly, but as soon as they open the tanks and drop the water, it goes, or the fuzz check or whatever it goes everyplace other than where they want it. So to be effective, there are certain parameters that they can fly. And the same thing with night flying. Night flying, there's some very, very specific criteria to when helicopters can fly at night and actually do do the drops.

00:30:37:08 - 00:31:06:17

And it is extremely hazardous to the pilots to be flying with night vision goggles with bright fire underneath them while they're trying to drop and let alone be aware of power lines and everything else that could be around. So for them to reach that level of risk versus gain it, it's it's a big deal. So, you know, they're only going to fly when they can meet that criteria and do it safely.

00:31:06:19 - 00:31:27:05

They will risk a lot to save a lot. But, you know, they're there is criteria with that. And I think that's important for the public to recognize also. Yeah absolutely. And it's a you know I can speak to that that up here in Canada I've worked some of the fires where we've actually not been able to fly on a very large fire for over a week because the smoke has been so thick that, there's just no visibility.

00:31:27:05 - 00:31:47:09

So you can't send a plane or a helicopter into something that you honestly can't see more than ten feet in front of you. And so we do have to consider those things. Of course, wind is is also a factor. But we saw the pilots down there flying in pretty extreme winds, and you could see that flipping the plane all over and doing, giving it all sorts of shakes and some of the videos and really impressive.

00:31:47:09 - 00:32:06:16

I've always I'll say one thing about all the pilots that I've ever met. They're a little bit crazy, all of them. And and they're they're incredibly talented people and extremely, you know, confident in their skills. They often come from a military background, so they've come from very difficult flying backgrounds, and they bring a lot of skill to the table.

00:32:06:16 - 00:32:23:21

Before we finish up on on the the fire retardant, the red stuff and where they go for supplies. So fire retardant is actually they go back to the airport to pick up another load of that. So that comes out of tanks at an airport and is filled. They have quick fill systems that can fill those planes quite rapidly, and then they're back up and in the air.

00:32:23:21 - 00:32:39:04

But it is a longer turnaround versus those that carry just water, where they can drop down into a water source. And for those that are scooping in the ocean, they have to go through a big maintenance cycle every time that they're finished. And to clean that saltwater out so that the plane doesn't corrode. So it's a big job.

00:32:39:04 - 00:32:54:22

Same thing with a fire engine. If we run saltwater through a fire engine, we have to flush everything out to make sure we not having any corrosion there because let's face it, each of these pieces of equipment is millions of dollars that we're dealing with, and we obviously can't just be going through them like crazy.

00:32:55:11 - 00:33:08:04

Unknown

Dee dee dee. He did it.

00:33:08:06 - 00:33:39:06

Unknown

He d d d d d d d d d d de de de de de de de de de de de de. Any day.

00:33:39:06 - 00:33:41:22

So let's talk about for us a little bit here.

00:33:41:22 - 00:33:59:02

Forced management has been a topic that's been brought up a lot. And your forests there are quite different than what we have in Canada. Although you have quite a bit of similarity to what we have here in Kamloops because we're in a desert like environment here. So it's semi-arid and we have a lot of low lying bush and grasslands.

00:33:59:02 - 00:34:26:13

But talk about down there in California, I understand that it regrows fairly quickly. So something you've had a fire in an area and it can regrow and you can have another fire in that area within. I don't sure how long a period of time, but not all that long after. Yeah. Correct. Yeah. In some areas depending, especially if we have if we have a pretty decent rainy season after the fire went through, then we could have enough regrowth within the year.

00:34:26:13 - 00:34:49:15

You know, mustard grows really, really quickly. And when it dries out it's very receptive. So when we could get grass fires literally the next year, now it's in the heavier brush. Manzanita trying to think what else shimmies. And then you get into the trees and timber and stuff like that. It takes a little bit longer for those to regrowth, especially in a forest, you know, the big trees.

00:34:49:15 - 00:35:11:10

It takes a lot for those to to grow back. If you end up, you know, clearcutting the whole forest because of the fire and damage all the trees, be up to where they're dead and they have to be forced it out, then you could have a grass fire, you know, or the slash underneath, you know, the grass catches the slash, and then you get a fire fairly soon after it.

00:35:11:12 - 00:35:38:21

But, you know, as far as vegetation management goes, it is a challenge. There's there's a lot of restrictions in California for vegetation management, and a lot of it has to do with air quality. There's endangered species. There's some different, you know, you're crossing private lands, public lands, so on and so forth, you know. And so there's a lot that goes into managing those.

00:35:38:22 - 00:36:02:04

And there's obviously there's tremendous amount of benefits. And I would say in general, the environmental, especially the people that work, the lands, you know, your, cattle ranchers and things like that. They do want, you know, some help clearing out. You know, it's starting to, you know, clear out some of the non-Indigenous plants and things like that.

00:36:02:10 - 00:36:28:05

And it improves the rangelands for them to be able to use and also controlled burns within the forest to thin out the, the duff and everything that's underneath. If you can do that at a low intensity and controlled manner, you can clean some of that stuff out. And that protects the, you know, the fire building. Enough energy to climb the trees and get up and in there.

00:36:28:05 - 00:36:59:15

And that's under normal conditions, not counting wind. Okay. But so there are I know our department does have a vegetation management program, and we work with this with Cal Fire, to to do control burns so when we can. But, there's, there's a lot that goes into it. And the timing, I mean, we may have 3 or 4 burns ready to go, and we have to wait till the proper weather conditions will allow us to, to do that.

00:36:59:15 - 00:37:23:06

So, it's it is a tedious process. It would be nice if we could do more, but because also we use those controlled burns as training, and it gives us an opportunity to train our newer folks on fire conditions, fire weather, being able to see how things work and topography, topography driven fires and those types of things. So it's really has a grand effect in a positive way.

00:37:23:08 - 00:37:49:10

If we can be allowed to do that more. Yeah. And you mentioned that, you know, fire is the most effective way to do this is, is to and because the area of land is not possible for people to go in and clean it up by hand, it's just simply not doable. When you look at what you've got to crawl through to get that stuff out of there and clean it up, it's it's it would be, monumental task that, the funding is not available for, say, the least.

00:37:49:15 - 00:38:14:15

Whereas fire you can do with a small crew of people and, and and and effectively clean out a lot of the hazard that's there. We've been challenged in Canada with our season has become so long for wildfire that, when we now are trying to do more prescribed burns, there's such a small, tiny little bit left of the season by the time they wrap up wildfire season, because it's the same people, and then they go into doing prescribed burns, and then we're into winter, which is you can't get things to burn.

00:38:14:18 - 00:38:40:04

So it's, you know, that's another challenge. And I wanted to add to, up here in Canada, we've, it's a little bit of a problem with the forestry business has in some provinces has sprayed our forests and eliminated certain species from our forest, has allowed for us, you know, to be wildfire. You know, like wildfire. Loves that with one species or a couple of species that are very easy to burn.

00:38:40:06 - 00:38:59:12

And, they jump from clearcut areas with dead material into a forest. With no resilience to fire. And, it makes it very difficult. So the, the forestry business has to make some adjustments here in Canada to, to help us out. And that side. And they also only plant certain species of trees. So we need more tree species.

00:38:59:12 - 00:39:21:01

We've lost a lot of our hardwood species that are in particularly in British Columbia here. So it's lots of challenges to go there. So if I can also yeah, if I can also add a little something too, is that there is also some pushback from a beautification standpoint. You know, people build out in the urban interface because they want to see the trees, they want to see, you know, live amongst nature and things like that.

00:39:21:01 - 00:39:42:08

And there is some inherent hazard that comes along with that. And when you're trying to, you know, build that defensible space, you know, we promote the 100ft minimum, you know, around structures and that type of thing. And that's a minimum. You know, the taller that the the trees and the canopies and things, the greater that space needs to be.

00:39:42:10 - 00:40:10:05

And unfortunately, that does mean, you know, you're going to have a bigger a bigger space around your house to for your own protection. And that's something that that just needs to be accepted and understood. You know, with that and being able to create that space and also cleaning, you know, around the house for receptive fuel beds, large piles of wood or leaves and things, you know, that that's where these embers land, you know?

00:40:10:05 - 00:40:33:14

And that's why you'll see these homes in the middle of the neighborhood that, you know, half a mile from, from any brush area whatsoever. And their houses are burning down. And it's because they had receptive fuel beds in and around the property or close to the home that then transfer to the home and they lose the home. So we just need to be more cognizant of that.

00:40:33:16 - 00:40:57:15

And then, yeah, you know, when we're talking about further out, the wildland management is, you know, we can only do so many dozer lines, you know, and each one of those dozer lines, in some people's opinion that's not beautiful. You know, you're taking you're drawing lines across my beautiful landscape. Yeah I understand that. But it's one of those risk versus gains.

00:40:57:15 - 00:41:20:18

You know, if we can put that stuff in then that may be an area that we can hold and protect that, you know, we can stitch this up into, you know, boxes that we can contain the fire within the box and without those, well, that box is gigantic and unmanageable. And then now under fire conditions, we're trying to put those lines in.

00:41:20:20 - 00:41:45:09

So, maintaining fire roads and building fire roads and allowing those to be done is is also part of wildlife management. Yeah. Yeah. And that you're, you know, making this point you have, have you know, really hit it is that when we get to the point of wildfire and we're talking about hydrants and water and all these things, this is not the response level.

00:41:45:11 - 00:42:07:13

And we've had we've missed a whole pile of opportunities during mitigation and preparation to get things in a better state. And that includes people and their individual properties and making them so that they are defensible space. So, I don't know if you if you use the fire smart program down in, in California or not. We have a program up here in Kennecott fire smart.

00:42:07:15 - 00:42:32:17

And it is that creating that defensible space around your home and making your home in structure a a resilient to fire. And I really can't encourage it enough for people to do this because it doesn't just apply to wildfire. If your neighbor's house catches on fire at some point in time, or a car catches on fire in front of your house, it can save your house at that particular time by having it as a defensible space and not having it built to burn.

00:42:32:18 - 00:42:50:04

I know looking at the images out of California and the fires that have happened over the last couple of weeks, when they show those aerial images, I just see a whole pile of homes that were built to burn. That's my view as a firefighter and someone who's done a lot of this work. So everybody needs to has a part in this.

00:42:50:04 - 00:43:07:22

And it's really important for everybody to take that time to prepare themselves and take those opportunities you have so that you're not in this position. And, you know, hopefully we have defensible spaces. So that is why I know when they rebuild, they're going to have different things in place to ensure people are building structures that are more resilient.

00:43:07:22 - 00:43:34:00

So and it does come at a cost, but it's not an extreme cost. I will say that. Yeah. And you're right. The the personal ownership of your own protection and, and that is is super important. And things that you may not think about as being a receptive fuel bed or a hazard. I know somebody that during the Thomas fire lost his home, had a wooden skateboard ramp built alongside the house.

00:43:34:02 - 00:43:53:20

Okay. And the embers got in, got underneath the the skateboard ramp and nobody was home, you know, not that it just they tried to work with it, but it just got way too, way too out of hand. And it caught the house on fire. And the house ended up burning to the ground, you know. So that was not meant to be.

00:43:53:20 - 00:44:31:05

Hey, you should stay at home. That's the furthest thing from my comment. Yeah. Okay. And you saw what happened. The pictures of, you know, people, you know, extreme conditions, obviously trying to get out of their home late, you know, but that's because of the timing of the fire. So I can't blame them for that. But that's why it's so important that when you do get an early if notice is to get out and get out of the way, because when you get to that point to where you're you can't get out and you're leaving your vehicle on the road, and we're having to use a bulldozer to push vehicles out of the way to be

00:44:31:05 - 00:44:55:16

able to get to the area. You know, obviously any homes that were further up that road could not be saved because the firefighters couldn't get to them. Yeah. You know, and it's just a shame that that happened. And we've had, you know, residents to be be overtaken by fire in their vehicle trying to get out, you know, so get out early.

00:44:55:18 - 00:45:20:02

Be prepared, be alert. It's super, super important. You know. You know we've lost I forget what the number is. I think we're up to over 15 or so people lost in these two fires. The two major fires here in Southern California because they couldn't get out of their house for whatever reason, or they chose to stay. Yeah. You know, they just chose to think I've been through this anywhere near the brush.

00:45:20:02 - 00:45:47:10

I'll be fine. Yeah. And and unfortunately, they're we've lost them. So please, please, please heed the warnings. Get out. Don't try to, you know, save your save your home. Granted, there's success stories out there, but those are few and far between are very few and and a life. It is not worth the house. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And it's a you know I you hit a good point there too on the often people leave when the fire is at their doorstep.

00:45:47:10 - 00:46:11:08

And actually I always tell people that, that at that point your, your evacuation route is probably blocked. So it's much too late at that point. And that's what you have to often consider more, is that your evacuation most likely is going to be taken out first, and then you're you're going to see the fire and you don't get to choose whether that fire is an extreme fire or a light fire that comes over that ridge to your home.

00:46:11:10 - 00:46:41:04

And these are not your grandparents fires. And that's what I tell a lot of people. These are burning way different than what they used to with, you know, backed by stronger winds and doing all sorts of crazy stuff that, that your grandparents never saw and that we need to adapt to that. So, you know, just to add on to that, the Palisades Fire, I haven't looked at the exact fire map to to compare the two, but I believe a portion of that fire burned through the area of the infamous Bel Air fire of the 60s, of firefighters that have gone through school and training.

00:46:41:09 - 00:47:09:15

It's one of the hallmark wildland fires in the history books. I remember studying that one. Okay, so that was in the 60s, and it burned however many acres and however 6000 homes or whatever during that period of time. And now you look at today, we're it's 2025 with technology. We have more equipment, better, more efficient equipment, we have more aircraft and help than they did back then.

00:47:09:17 - 00:47:47:04

And we burned a whole lot more in a shorter period of time. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So let's, talk a little bit about aircraft and firefighters. There's been some criticism that there weren't enough firefighters. So there always is that criticism and there weren't enough aircraft. So I think, important to note, like California has an incredible, fleet of aircraft, that they have at their disposal that's probably I was I was actually thinking that I might compare after and see, but the California might have more, wildland aircraft and than our, our entire Air Force does up here in Canada, as far as aircraft go.

00:47:47:04 - 00:48:04:10

So I'm not sure, but it's a it's an impressive fleet down there. So but they also need to bring in mutual aid, as you mentioned earlier, from other places. And this time of year, it's a little bit more difficult to get firefighters, wildland firefighters in the aircraft. So you can talk a little bit about why that is.

00:48:04:10 - 00:48:33:19

Well, you know, the typical the typical season, you know, like you had mentioned before, even though we say there is no fire season, but there is kind of a lull during the fall winter, except in Southern California. Okay. But otherwise nationwide, typically your summer months, you know, and then it does. So a large portion of the aircraft firefighting fleet are private agency contractors.

00:48:33:21 - 00:49:05:08

Okay. So they are in their downtime right now doing maintenance on their aircrafts. And, you know, large part of the Forest Service lays their their people off right at the, you know, beginning of fall November. Sometimes they move into December, but mostly by November. They've reduced their forces. Cal fire does the same thing. They have seasonal firefighters and their their forces are reduced at just so happens at this particular time of the year.

00:49:05:08 - 00:49:42:18

So with that being said, you're dealing with the only ones that are available are your full time paid and some volunteer fire agencies that are year round and their staffing is it year round. You know, it doesn't matter. They keep the same staffing. You also have agency ships. You know, Cal Fire is building their own Air force. You know, as far as aircraft, they've increased the number of their fire hawks, they've increased the number of C-130 aircraft, you know, over the last year.

00:49:42:20 - 00:50:06:14

So they're increasing that to be able to be a year round force to be able to do this. But there is like I said, a large portion. We were able to get some of those agency aircraft put back together and get them in the fleet. But it wasn't air. It was an initial attack. It took days for us to start to be able to gain that aircraft.

00:50:06:14 - 00:50:29:12

And even some of those aircraft, they go back home outside of the state. They're only here during the summer, and then they go back and go back home, and they use those aircraft for, you know, whatever else, especially the ones that are using long line, you know, they may be shuttling tours over the Grand Canyon or something during, you know, the off season.

00:50:29:14 - 00:50:56:15

Yeah. So getting that workforce back to work to be able to do that and to be able to absorb the surge of an incident like this. So that's where some of the problems lie. I mean, it's just like we talked about before, it's money, you know, and some of it's politics and some of it's just they can't afford to maintain a full scale, you know, workforce all year round.

00:50:56:17 - 00:51:15:02

They have to do it seasonal when they expect their, their greatest risk to be. And then they lay their people off for this, you know, for 3 or 4 months. And they come back in the spring, do their training and go back to work so that it does put a big burden on, on the locals to be able to, to handle that.

00:51:15:02 - 00:51:43:19

So, yeah. And we still need to protect, you know, we'll do mutual aid, like we sent three strike teams for 3 or 4 strike teams of engines of different type out of Ventura County. And within Ventura County. Partner resources, you know, Orange County down south of Los Angeles sent ten strike teams, you know, but they still have to protect the homeland, you know, so we can get to draw down.

00:51:43:21 - 00:52:06:22

But we still have to protect our own and be prepared for that fight, the next fire to happen in our jurisdiction. Yeah. You know, so how much do we give and still keep in reserve to be able to, you know, protect our own jurisdictions? So it's a balance, you know, and being able to do that is sometimes precarious.

00:52:07:00 - 00:52:25:04

Yeah, absolutely. And that's the thing. It's, you know, wildfire is it's when you look at the, the globe, it the seasons shift and the, the aircraft shifts with it. And some of the staffing does as well. So I know that there's, Packer attack crews. So those are the folks that jump out of the plane and into remote fires.

00:52:25:09 - 00:52:45:11

Some of those folks go down to Australia, New Zealand and work for the winter months, down there on which was their summer, and then aircraft that were here in our backyard in, in British Columbia, are in, you know, I get to watch them go to Australia, and New Zealand every year. So they're there, as you say, contract.

00:52:45:13 - 00:53:05:14

Aircraft that go there. And that's where they are. They've been there for over a month now. So, that's pretty typical. And they're supporting a what what is, you know, the start of their season down there. So, can we have that to those the Canada Air aircraft that we get or L.A. County gets, they only have them for a short period of time under contract.

00:53:05:16 - 00:53:24:11

It's when you guys are done with your season. Then they come down to us for our fall season. So yeah. Yeah. You know, I was I was actually quite surprised to see that we were able to send the amount of super scoopers down from Canada that we had because they would be in maintenance right now usually. So obviously they were ready to go and able to to send them down, which was was wonderful.

00:53:24:14 - 00:53:46:11

But that's not always the case. So, so when we, when we look at aircraft and the job that they do, there's also images out there of, of those aircraft doing incredible work to, to snuff out the fire. Do, do helicopters and planes put out wildfire or do firefighters in the ground put out the fire? It's a partnership.

00:53:46:11 - 00:54:12:19

It's a combination, you know, because they the aircraft can we'll just use a helicopter as an example on a, you know, a small fire. And it might be a ways for us to get a hose line into so that aircraft, that helicopter could knock down the fire, but it requires boots on the ground to cut the perimeter. So when you when we talk about containment numbers, you know, like this morning, what was it?

00:54:12:19 - 00:54:39:01

I said it was 19% contained on the Palisades fire. And you're like, wait a minute. I don't see any smoke. I don't, you know, there's occasional active fire inside the, you know, interior areas. Why is it not 100% contained or 50% contained or whatever? We have to we have to physically draw a line and trace all around each edge of that fire line.

00:54:39:01 - 00:55:00:12

And it goes and it'll do fingers and everything. We have to go around each one of those little fingers, and it's either done with a hand crew cutting line down to mineral soil around each one, or a bulldozer doing that, or we're putting hose line and making it wet around each and everything, and that takes an enormous amount of time.

00:55:00:14 - 00:55:18:07

It's not like we just do a box and say, it's good to go. You know? There is methods to where we will do that, and then we'll burn to the edge of the box. We'll fire that out to, to to make it easier on us. But we can't do that in and amongst homes and neighborhoods and things like that.

00:55:18:07 - 00:55:42:20

So it it takes an enormous amount of time to be able to do that and manpower. So it is a combination of that and then going interior to make sure that there's no hot spots left that could produce embers, that could travel outside of the control lines. So it is a combination they do support, but we can't can't do it one without the other, for that matter.

00:55:42:20 - 00:56:03:03

For the most part. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, that's the work that firefighters do on the ground. Is is hard, hard work. I've done it many times. And it is you are backbreaking labor. It's hot. It's gross. You are filthy. And, I know the people. I've always seen the pictures of firefighters sleeping on concrete or pavement after.

00:56:03:03 - 00:56:21:15

And I'll tell you, I've been there. That you are. You're gone. You're just so happy to be able to lay down anywhere that you'll take it. So. And, as you mentioned, it's it's dangerous work as well. So it's a very strategic process to, to make sure that you're ensuring that you're creating a barrier around that fire. But yeah, it takes a long time to get that line drawn around.

00:56:21:15 - 00:56:36:08

And and you mentioned fingers. I just wanted to make sure that people are clear on what what you're saying there. So a fire will burn, but it will leave unburnt material in between where it's burnt. So my finger would be burnt and then they'll be unburnt. You need to make sure that that's not going to catch on fire and then take off.

00:56:36:08 - 00:56:51:19

So those wildfires, when they burn normally and especially at the lower temperature, they'll leave lots of fingers. A lot of the extreme fires that we've experienced here in Canada, you don't see the fingers, which is kind of creepy to see that from the air. You don't just see a big black blob or a big white blob, which is like it looks like it's nuclear.

00:56:51:19 - 00:57:15:02

It's just that nothing left. So, so, the other thing that, firefighters have to be cautious of with aircraft is the drops that happen above them. And I want to just talk about that for a moment, because people that do stay behind, I want them to be aware that we take extra precautions. We don't stand underneath those like they're we're getting a shower because those tell us why that is, because it's you got an aircraft here that can I know a lot of them do it.

00:57:15:04 - 00:57:45:16

The big jets will do a drop at 300km an hour. So what's that feel like on the ground? Well, it it's, you know, eight point whatever pounds per gallon of water, you know, and then you multiply that by 3000 gallons, you know, that's a ton of water. Literally tons of water. And it's being dropped at an altitude, you know, so you have the just physics, you know, that increases the speed of that coming down unless it breaks apart into the droplets.

00:57:45:16 - 00:58:08:07

But if you're into a, you know, the a large portion of water hitting you at the same time, it takes trees out, you know, it. So we do take protections or, you know, if we know that there's a large drop coming down, we will lay down on the ground. We put our foot, our feet towards the direction that it's, you know, coming.

00:58:08:07 - 00:58:26:21

So it will hit our feet instead of hitting directly on our head to protect our bodies. And we cover our necks and the whole nine yards, you know, to protect ourselves from that force that's coming down. And there are the times where we get, you know, peripheral spray and, and that type of thing. And it's it's not a big deal.

00:58:27:01 - 00:58:49:06

So you will see some folks in videos, you've seen it this week where they're standing around. I watched a, you know, a news crew get, you know, painted a little bit. And they're trying to protect the camera and everything else. And, yeah, high winds, high drops. It's going to be droplets that are coming down. It's not as dangerous.

00:58:49:08 - 00:59:10:23

But, those large tankers, when they're dropping, they cut a swath, they take the brush out, trees out. You know, we've had there was a firefighter killed two years ago. I believe it was. He was on a ridgeline watching a drop plane came across, did the drop, and it broke at a top of the tree off or whatever.

00:59:10:23 - 00:59:30:23

And that chunk came down and it, it killed him, you know, and we lost a firefighter because of wrong place, wrong time. And it had to do with the, the drop. So it's it's extremely dangerous around those those drops. Yeah. So, folks, just think about it. If you're out there and you see one of these, just think about somebody throwing a bucket of water, right.

00:59:31:02 - 00:59:47:02

If they were driving along a highway and they threw a bucket of water at you on the way by, it's not going to feel good. So, you don't want to be in the line of it. And I'll tell a little funny story from years ago. Up here, one of the tricks that we'll do is we'll hug a tree, opposite side of the tree that the plane is coming from.

00:59:47:08 - 01:00:05:15

So you're facing where the plane is coming from. And one of my one of my, firefighter friends, he, they got hit pretty good with this, bomber came in and hit them, and, it took his pants off because he was just wearing a shirt and pants at that particular time, and he was pants straight, so it was a pretty funny moment.

01:00:05:15 - 01:00:26:21

They everybody is like. He's like, And then everybody looked over and just a set of cheeks there. So yeah, he was fine though. So. So, I did want to also talk about that. We don't put firefighters in front of a fire typically. I know that some of that will will happen there in California, but, where is the safest spot to fight a fire?

01:00:26:22 - 01:00:58:18

And how do you go about fighting them down there? Well, it it really depends on the resource. Okay. So, you get, you know, we'll do direct hand line with hand crews, but it usually is just behind the fire, you know, the, the head of the fire. So there may be some flames, but it's usually there's some, some black who, what we call that's already been burned that the the crew firefighters have that safety area where they can get into the black, you know, to protect themselves.

01:00:58:20 - 01:01:22:13

Okay. So that would be that or using a hose line we can attack, get closer and closer to the flames. Okay. Then you've got bulldozers. Bulldozers will can run on a low grass fire. They can be right up against it. And the fire would lipping up against the, the side of the bulldozer. And they can, you know, cut their way around it.

01:01:22:15 - 01:01:47:04

The larger the the brush, the further that bulldozer has to be away. And they'll cut their line and allow the fire to burn up against to the line. Okay. And they will. That's called parallel firefighting. You know, in a and then you've got, you know, and they'll try to pinch it off towards the front of the, you know and hand crews will do that again.

01:01:47:06 - 01:02:11:18

The lower the the grasses the lower the intensity, they'll be able to do that and they'll cut a little bit with some space. They'll pinch it off and do a pincer attack to, to bring it around to the front. Okay. Your helicopters and air tankers and that they work the head of the fire because they've got the, you know, the distance and the space to be able to do that.

01:02:11:20 - 01:02:33:04

So they can drop directly on the head of the fire to try to cool it down and allow some extra time for the crews to, you know, if you're if you're thinking of this fire being a circle, you know, or more like an arrow and the the head of the fire is, you know, burn in this direction, you do have that ability to, you know, come around to the side of it.

01:02:33:06 - 01:02:57:15

So, but it we really we try to stay away from the head of the fire because that's where the most intense heat production is and the greatest danger for us, you know, because fire behavior is can be very unpredictable. Yeah, absolutely. And they need a wind at it. It's a whole nother ballgame. That's right. Yeah. You're dealing with very extreme winds and and then.

01:02:57:15 - 01:03:15:21

Yeah, the other benefit that fire crews have on the ground is they have good communication, both with the aircraft up above them and, and with the other crews as well as the command. So they have a good picture of what's going on. Whereas you as a homeowner, if you stay behind, you're not going to have that. You're going to most likely lose cell reception, satellite and radio communication.

01:03:16:00 - 01:03:32:18

That's a good, very good chance that you're going to lose communication. So you won't have those eyes and ears like they do. And that's that makes it a little bit more challenging. So I really want to reiterate with people, though, that some of these fires, there is nothing human that can stop them. We've not been able to create anything that we've been able to stop these fires.

01:03:32:18 - 01:03:55:15

So don't think that you are a superhero and you're going to be able to be that one person that dies. So please heed the warnings and get out. So, go to just a one more question here for you and then a few rapid fire questions. And, we'll finish up. So, when we talk about communications, I just, you know, I'll talk about this a little bit because that's my, my area of expertise.

01:03:55:15 - 01:04:18:07

But, one thing that we've seen with, this, these particular setups is that in this particularly American approach, I would say, that lots of people there's a spokesperson standing on a podium and a whole crew of people behind them. I really want to discourage that practice because it's being used against you right now because, they're using the facial expressions of everybody behind you to imply that there's something else going on.

01:04:18:07 - 01:04:36:16

So really try to put your, your person in front of that podium and get those other people away. It also does doesn't look good from a perspective, you know, from resources. There was one particular conference I saw recently, this this past week where there was almost 30 people standing behind them. So to me, that's 30 people that should be doing something right now.

01:04:36:18 - 01:04:51:03

So I, I have an in and out approach. When I'm doing those sorts of things, I get the person in, they answer the questions and then they're back to their job. And so I really want to encourage that a little bit there. But do you have any thoughts on communication and what could be what communicating to the public?

01:04:51:03 - 01:05:27:05

Any advice that you would give to those that are working on these fires? Well, as a as a public information officer, also, I've served in that role a number of times. It's, it's an ever changing landscape. You know, you've got social media that you've got to stay on top of, and that requires somebody to physically sit in a space and monitor that and chase down and debunk false information that's being spread and reinforce the positive, you know, so there's a person that has to be situated to do that.

01:05:27:11 - 01:05:55:13

And I'm not saying that every that's somebody that if they weren't doing that they'd be out fighting the fire because they may not be. You know, we have a large amount of civilians that we, you know, office staff, fire prevention officers. They're not firefighters to speak of, to be out doing that work. And we use them to support that joint information center of gathering information, answering the phones and doing interviews and things like that.

01:05:55:14 - 01:06:22:14

Because to get information out to the public, you know, and processing that information, gathering it and and putting it all together, you know, it's, you're familiar with the, you know, the the planning cycle or the planning P and how that all happens. It takes time to go through that, you know, and it's very difficult to, you know, when you hear something on the radio to be able to process that.

01:06:22:14 - 01:06:55:13

And if you're not from the area, because we do get PIOs from all over the place that are coming to support us, they're not familiar with that particular spot that they may be hearing on the radio. So to be able to process that, verify what that information was and then getting it cleared by command to be able to share it with the public, you know, because there are things that, you know, we talk about or we hear that it's not that we're keeping it a secret.

01:06:55:15 - 01:07:21:03

It's we're trying to control the the speed and pace of that information to prevent fear and prevent panic and things like that, because there's things that, oh, the fire made a left turn. It's going towards left street. Hang on a minute. It may not mean that it's directly going to affect left Street, you know, or right street or whatever.

01:07:21:03 - 01:07:50:05

You know it. So we have to gauge that level of urgency on how and what we. And then what means do we use to express that? Are we using reverse 911 systems, or are we doing the, public safety announcements over cell service, things like that? The media or TV, radio, Twitter, you know, whatever social media platform that they may be using.

01:07:50:07 - 01:08:20:15

Those are all available to us and to try to have that consistent message. And that's why we have a joint information center where we have representatives from law enforcement from the fire agencies, from public safety here, public, you know, political, you know, type of, you know, city council emergency management to be able to craft a joint message that's in that's approved by unified command to be able to express.

01:08:20:17 - 01:08:45:17

So it's not something that we can just be whipping out momentarily. It takes a it takes time to do that. And that's why you get press conferences, you know, 1 to 2 times a day at the most. Yeah. You know, and we do our best to try to line that up with the news cycles, you know, so that it's hot off the press for the, you know, 7:00 news in the morning.

01:08:45:19 - 01:09:13:11

You know, we might have if there's an update to give we'll give it at 11. So we catch the 11 to noon news window and then the afternoon and these big fires we're getting bombarded by the media from all over the country. So now we're doing press conferences, maybe not a press conference, but interviews at 3:00 in the morning, California time, because we're catching the 6:00 news window for the East Coast.

01:09:13:11 - 01:09:44:17

And so we do our best to work with that and still do our jobs. And so when you're you're talking about who the spokesperson is and where that is, believe me, I get your point about, you know, but that's something I don't think here in the United States, for that matter, is probably ever going to get away from because there is the political FaceTime and it's they're standing back there to show support, and they may never speak in front of a mic.

01:09:44:19 - 01:10:09:22

You know, there's there's representatives, you know, it's supposed to be showing a united front. You know, the reality is we only really want to talk to emergency manager if there is one. Yeah. Who's running the fire. So either the incident commander or the ops section chief. Well, the ops section chief is busy doing his job to pull him or her away to do a press conference.

01:10:10:00 - 01:10:37:18

Not the most popular thing, but that's why we have deputy ops to be able to share that load. Same thing with Deputy ICE's law enforcement. Same thing. You need a law enforcement official to, you know, talk about what's going on in law enforcement and if there's an EMS component and so on and so forth. But there is always the, you know, mayor wants to talk, the city council chair wants to talk, you know, the state senator representative that's there.

01:10:37:18 - 01:10:55:22

He want to or she wants to talk to show that, look, I'm here, I'm here to support you. So there is that political component that we're never going to get away from that. Yeah. You know, it's very challenging. I mean, up here in Canada, that's one thing we don't have that in place. And that's so elected officials often are not in front of the camera.

01:10:56:00 - 01:10:57:00

Not as much.

01:10:58:23 - 01:11:21:03

A big thanks to our listeners throughout the 40 countries who joined us in our first year. Please reach out. I'd love to hear more from you. What you want to learn from this podcast, and any suggestions for topics or guests. A big wave to all of our listeners in Mexico and listeners in these communities. Neither Colombia, Yellowknife, Northwest Territories.

01:11:21:05 - 01:11:47:20

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01:11:47:22 - 01:11:57:19

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01:11:57:19 - 01:12:02:21

one book, documentary or resource that you recommend to those learning about crisis or emergency management?

01:12:02:21 - 01:12:20:04

I think for somebody that is in the emergency management business, I think the book to, to reference is the, you know, the ISIS for 20 book which talks about the incident command system.

01:12:20:04 - 01:12:48:06

And I know in other countries it's considered the incident management system are IMS, but the concepts are are very similar, if not the same. I think that is super critical to understand how the family tree is put together and how it can be scaled up or scaled down, what the position descriptions are, so that you know what's available to you in the toolbox, and understanding, you know how that all fits together.

01:12:48:08 - 01:13:15:14

So I think that's a core resource that anybody that's in emergency services or emergency management needs to read and understand. Yeah. Good one. What advice would you give information officers or communicators that are managing a crisis or emergency to help them do their job better, build a team and stay informed. You know, if you're sitting in the office and expecting the information to come to you, it's it's either going to be delayed or it's not going to happen.

01:13:15:16 - 01:13:56:15

So you have to get out. And even if it's standing in the wall, you know, be a wallflower in the briefing room to listen to what's going on during the ops briefing, you know, or planning briefing or, you know, the cooperators briefing, you know, be around, be listening to that stuff and then have a team that will, you know, monitor radio traffic, go out in the field and talk to the, you know, we call it trap line snow, where you go out and you maybe you're out at the grocery store or the local hot coffee shop and you're talking to the public and, and being able to both receive information from them and their concerns,

01:13:56:21 - 01:14:30:03

but also give them authentic information from you. But if you're going to stand up there and talk to somebody, you've got to have authentic information and it's got to be legit. Don't guess, don't make stuff up. You know, if you don't know, I don't know. And I'll have to get back to you and then get back to them, you know, and let them know, get their number and you will build a tremendous amount of respect from the public that they know that they that they have trust in you, that you are going to do what you said and you're giving them authentic information.

01:14:30:05 - 01:14:50:22

Yeah. Excellent. And, last question is, how do you maintain your mental well-being during the most intense response moments? Well, I wasn't good at it. You know, I, I reached a point to where my, my backpack or my safe, so to speak, got to fill, you know, and, and I had to I had to deal with that.

01:14:50:22 - 01:15:18:11

And through treatment and therapy and that type of thing. But in the heat of the moment, just, you know, go through, I would say, learn your breathing techniques, you know, breath works or whatever, you know, take a moment, breathe, take a look at what you have control over and what you don't have control over and manage what you can control and evaluate your hazards and risks that you have that are directly to you.

01:15:18:13 - 01:15:42:17

And if you can mitigate them, mitigate them. If you can't recognize that your it's time to leave, it's time to get out of that particular situation. Yeah. But, you know, keeping that in check, you need to be focused and be in the moment. You can't be thinking about, you know, other things. What's going on at home, what you're missing, you know, somebody's birthday party or whatever.

01:15:42:18 - 01:16:08:12

You really absolutely have to be in the moment. Because if you're if you're not paying attention, you could miss something. And it could be anything from a sound to something just visually passing by. And it could be it could be a life and death type miss. So be in the moment and then when you do have your downtimes, take that moment to take the extra breaths.

01:16:08:14 - 01:16:45:02

Get the rest that you need. Process what you just experienced and after the fact, get that you know. Talk to get it. You know, close comrades and friends, you know coworkers that you can openly express how you felt in that moment. Yeah, you were scared and it I didn't know what was going to happen. And, you know, it was a close call or, you know, I saw whatever being able to share that with somebody and express that, let that out and you know, if the emotions flow, let them flow.

01:16:45:04 - 01:17:12:00

Yeah. The days of, you know, suck it up. And, you know, in these types of situations, these fires, you're not going to get a chance to, you know, take a half hour or, you know, to process, you're jumping right back in the saddle and you're going for the next one and that you are under an intense, long term, traumatic, you know, event that goes from one thing to another.

01:17:12:00 - 01:17:33:05

And it compounds on itself. And you just need to you need to manage it as best you can in the moment. But when you get your chance, and especially after the incident is over, allow yourself to process it. Yeah, because it will it will build on you and it'll have an effect long term, you know. Yeah. So absolutely.

01:17:33:07 - 01:17:53:00

Yeah. Really good. Now I really appreciate you. And thank you for joining me for an episode. Jeff. I, appreciate your insight and your knowledge. I hope the remainder of the season is not as difficult as it has been so far. And I wish you safety and, lots of hope, for you and your crews out there.

01:17:53:01 - 01:18:00:06

So thanks very much for joining me today. Peter, I appreciate it very much. Absolutely. It's been my pleasure. You take care also.

01:18:01:18 - 01:18:16:12

Thank you for joining us for this episode. Do you have a guest topic or a suggestion or some thoughts about one of our episodes? You can write to us by visiting Communications podcast.com, where you can also leave a review wherever you listen, whether it's Spotify, iTunes or Amazon Music.

01:18:16:16 - 01:18:36:01

Please hit the subscribe button. Share with a colleague or a friend such as someone in the wildfire service. We also have a newsletter that will give you more information, and we put up transcripts, links and information from our guests on Communications podcast.com. If you like this episode, check out season two, episode 12 Nova Scotia Porter's Lake and Lake Echo.

01:18:36:01 - 01:18:53:15

Wildfire the first sign of social media and misinformation in an emergency. Thank you for listening to the wildfires, Floods and Chaos Communications podcast, a production of Butterfly Effect Communications. We are masters of doom and gloom communications, bringing calm to chaos. Goodbye. Hear me later.